MISSION: END PREVENTABLE BLINDNESS

Take back your health now - Episode 75 Podcast with Dr.Travis Zigler

Take back your health now - Episode 75 Podcast with Dr.Travis Zigler

Eye Care to Prevent Vision Loss PODCAST - Dr. Travis Zigler

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Take back your health now - Episode 75

Dr. Travis graduated in 2010 from The Ohio State University College of Optometry with Magna Cum Laude honors. He went on to own two optometry practices in South Carolina specializing in “difficult to fit” contact lens patients and dry eye, but soon found his passion for entrepreneurship.

In 2015, he started Eye Love, an eye wellness company with a mission to end preventable blindness. Along with his wife, Jenna, they continue to work part time in optometry and build Eye Love with the goal of eventually opening free clinics in the US and abroad. When he’s not working on Eye Love or in clinic, he enjoys traveling to Jamaica, running, and playing the ukulele while he drinks his morning coffee.

Questions addressed in the podcast:

  • What causes glaucoma on the eye?
  • Why does eye sight get poor mid-life?
  • How does dry eye relate to glaucoma? 

You are listening to the Take Back Your Health Now Podcast. The Show that interviews the top doctors, athletes, trainers, and entrepreneurs to help you find the holy grail of health. Now here’s your host Dr. Dan Margolin.

Dr. Dan: Hey this is Dr. Dan Margolin with another segment of Take Back Your Health Now where we pull out all the stops in search of health’s holy grail. I’m very excited today we have Dr. Travis Zigler, he is on a mission to end preventable blindness. In 2010 he graduated from the Ohio State University College of Optometry with Magna Cum Laude honors. He went on to own two optometry practices in South Carolina specializing in “difficult to fit” contact lens patients and dry eye, but soon found his passion for entrepreneurship. In 2015, he started Eye Love, an eye wellness company with a mission to end preventable blindness. Along with his wife, Jenna, they continue to work part time in optometry and build Eye Love with the goal of eventually opening free clinics in the US and abroad. Because this is amazing 703 million people are blind to the lack of glasses. I have no idea about this. They give a portion of all profits back to those who can neither afford nor obtain an eye care in Jamaica and South Carolina. When he is not working on Eye Love or in clinic, he enjoys traveling to Jamaica, running, and playing the ukulele while he drinks his morning coffee. Dr. Zigler welcome to the show sir.

Dr. Travis: Hey Dr. Dan, glad to be here.

Dr. Dan: Well, um, I’m really excited to have you, have you on board. Dr. Zigler, so, I first of all, I had no idea that blindness would cause by lack of having glasses and stuff was even a thing. I just never even considered it till I started reading your works and looking into what you are doing. Can you, just go back a little, how did you get started in optometry, just give a history and then how did you get into this whole thing.

Dr. Travis: So all occur has to go back to our parents, I think that’s pretty typical but back in undergrad when I was at Ohio State University my parents, I was looking into health care. I was looking at veterinarian, becoming an MD and then optometry as well. My uncle is a practicing optometrist in Columbus Ohio where Ohio State is, so my parents kind of said “Well have you thought about optometry?” and I hadn’t yet and they said why don’t you start working for your uncle and see how you like it and so I started working for him in 2003. I ended up working there as not an optometrist but just as kind of ophthalmic technician for about 7 years until I graduated optometry school in 2010. And so, he kind of pushed me in that path of optometry and my parents hinted to the path and then my uncle kind of made me, not made me but he inspired me to go in to optometry and loved it 4 years in optometry school at Ohio State and then graduated at 2010. I then worked for him for 5 years until 2015 and that’s when my wife and I went off on our own and we moved from Ohio down to where I am currently in South Carolina. We opened up 2 clinics, pretty much cold, which means you pretty much started with no real patients or anything. It was actually a practice

Dr. Dan: That’s rough, that’s rough. I have done that myself. Absolutely.

Dr. Travis: Yeah, it was actually a practice that was going downhill and we took it as an opportunity to challenge ourselves and we revamp both the practices, ended up selling one about a month ago and now we just have the one I worked a day and a half a week. My wife works 2 days a week and then we have 5 day weekends which is incredible and then we get to work on our e-commerce store. So, don’t think we’re just relaxing, we are working on Eye Love.

Dr. Dan: No,no, I’m sure you are. I’m sure, you know I was, I was listening to some of your ah videos and stuff and you, one of them you told a story about how you, I guess you went to Jamaica and I wasn’t completely sure. So there was some sort of a clinic thing that you went with through optometry school or whatever and there was a clinic where you donating time to individuals that needed a care could, and then you met one gentleman who had a real severe problem and that changed your whole view point. Could you just go into that story a little bit.

Dr. Travis: Yeah, it’s actually funny we were in Ecuador. This is our first mission trip we ever went on and we are down in Guayaquil Ecuador, and I remember day 2 we were in clinic and we always kind of triage the line when we drive into clinic on the bus and we just kind of look for that patient that is in a lot of pain, has a red eye and will go grab them and pull them to the front of the line and bring them into clinic and this patient in particular was about an 80 year old gentleman named Angel Rivera, I will never forget his name.

Dr. Dan: Wow, just one question, how many people are lined up for this? Like when you, this is, like how many doctors pull up and how many people are waiting to be seen?

Dr. Travis: So we usually have a team of about anywhere from 20 to 40 people and usually about 25% of those people are doctors and then on day 1 clinic we usually have about 10 people waiting in line and then by day 5 of clinic we usually have about 500 waiting in line.

Dr. Dan: Oh my god.

Dr. Travis: So, word spreads quickly.

Dr. Dan: Wow, wow and why, why is there such a demand for this? There’s no, is there such poverty in these areas?

Dr. Travis: Yes, so the, like,we do most of our mission work in Jamaica, now we have been doing that for the last 5 years and there’s about 500,000 Jamaicans per optometrist or ophthalmologist and so in the United Stated it’s usually about 10,000 to one and it’s 500,000 to one.

Dr. Dan: Oh my god. So I cut you off. So this gentleman you spotted him and you pulled him out. What, what was it about him, what was is about him that made you?

Dr. Travis: He was obvious. He had, he was holding his eye and looked in obvious pain kind of kill over in pain so we pulled him up to the front and we checked the pressures inside of his eye and you want  your pressure to run anywhere under 22. That’s kind of the standard that we look for and his pressure was 80 which is 4x what’s considered high and so we knew this gentleman was in pain from pressure but he was also in he was at an emergency for losing his vision and so.

Dr. Dan: Oh my god

Dr. Travis: And that’s what glaucoma is, it’s one that pressure increases and causes damage to the nerve in the back of your eye and then the nerve connects to your brain so that’s kind of your camera cord to your brain and that’s how you see and how you interpret the data. Well we brought him to the front started treating him, took about 4 hours of treatment this guy didn’t say a word the whole time and just kind of look very stern and just think of an 80 year old farmer that’s been working outside for you know 60 years of his life and

Dr. Dan: Sure

Dr. Travis: We finally got his pressure down to about 30 in clinic and gave him some drops to take home and at the end he started crying, grab me and hugged and started saying “God bless you, God bless you” and that’s when I knew my life would change forever.

Dr. Dan: Wow, isn’t it, isn’t it funny right. You think somebody is so still so working then they’ll realize they’re in pain and you help them and then it just changed your view. It’s amazing, amazing, amazing that we get back ah what we’ve always sow, I guess, we get back more sometimes and we even realize um, what, let me ask you doc, what, um, just go into this concept of glaucoma so, how, what causes that? Like, why would this gentleman have such a high pressure?

Dr. Travis: So, glaucoma is kind of a mysterious disease of the eye actually the eye in general. We just don’t know much any of the diseases that occur there but what we know about glaucoma is that it is a damaged to the nerve of your eye and like I said before the nerve connects your eye to your brain and we think it’s cause from high pressure so, we treat it by bringing down the pressure but there’s other variables that go into it and we have people that have normal pressures that still get glaucoma so, glaucoma is one of those mysteries. But with him it was pretty easy to pinpoint the cause and you have fluid that is pumped into your eye and then it drains out of your eye and if that drain gets clogged the fluids going to back up and cause the pressure to spike and increase and that’s going to cause an emergency situation and that’s what he was in. We unfortunately, weren’t able to get his sight restored because he already lost it but we got him pain free and that’s what was important for him was that he is pain free and he still has the other eye so we just gave him protection and then eye protection like sunglasses that could take impact um, glasses that could take impact and then we gave him drops to taken that eye to help bring down the pressure to prevent this from happening again.

Dr. Dan: How does, is that, when you’re saying you brought down his pressure from 80 to 30 you’re using eye drops at that point? Is that what?

Dr. Travis: Eye drops and then oral medication as well.

Dr. Dan: An oral medication and how does that work? How does it actually take the pressure down?

Dr. Travis: So we talked about how fluid is pumped in and then it’s drained out and so the drops work by either stopping the fluid from going in or increasing the drainage that is coming out.

Dr. Dan: Oh, I got you. Okay, wow.

Dr. Travis: So we actually use multiple drops to do both mechanisms. Where is in if we treat somebody for glaucoma here in the States we give them a drop that does one or the other.

Dr. Dan: And it’s a fairly, sounds like a fairly immediate process.

Dr. Travis: It can be so in that case. You’re dropping him every 10 minutes or so um, but with glaucoma treated in the States we only give him a drop a day and it’s more of a gradual kind of a gradual treatment versus with him as an emergency so we just gave him everything we could.

Dr. Dan: You just hit him with a kitchen sink. Understood, understood.

Dr. Travis: Yeah

Dr. Dan: So, so, you get this reaction from him and and you you realized your life’s worth. Where you did you go from there? How did this start to change who you are and what you do?

Dr. Travis: So I was actually going into my fourth year of optometry school and actually my third year going to optometry school and then in our fourth year I still remember this my clinical professor she actually just won faculty member of the year nationally and so, this speaks to how well she is and how well she thought her name is Dr. Jackie Davies and she did a free clinic for Ohio State and so we do in our fourth year externships and one of my rotations was with her, at this free clinic and I remember her saying she sold her private practice to do what she is doing now and I was like I don’t understand that. Why would you ever want to sell your private practice to do free clinics and she is like you’ll understand it one day.

Dr. Dan: Wow

Dr. Travis: And the funny thing is just a month ago when we sold our private practice I sent her an email explaining that conversation we had, that I had with her and how I never realized how much it would change my life and how much I would actually listen to her six year, seven years later

Dr. Dan: Amazing right, amazing, so, well done, well done. But let me just, just, when, when you, when you, sell your practice, how, where did you go from there? Because that’s tough, I mean, this is how you’re making your income. This is how you’re treating patients, did you just, just explain the process? Because it’s really quite fascinating I know being in private practice myself, um, I do spend some time treating patients and stuffs like that and how do you transition to other things?

Dr. Travis: So, my wife and I when we moved to South Carolina we started 2 practices um, one a private practice, one considered a commercial practice because it’s inside Walmart we still own the practice but we just rent the space from Walmart and when we moved down here since we are starting up cold as you know patients can be pretty scared when you start up cold right at the beginning and I get bored very easily so we started an online e-commerce store called Eye Love and we started selling sunglasses and we became kind of a sunglasses shop. We had a manufacturer over in China that manufacture the sunglasses for us and then we design them and then we bring them over here and sell them and we noticed that was kind of taking a little faster than our practices were

Dr. Dan: Wow

Dr. Travis: So at the end of last year we made the decision that we need to get rid of one of these three things either one of our practices or Eye Love and Eye Love was what I was enjoying and so we decided to sell the private practice and we sold that. So, now I can work full time in the e-commerce side and then part time as a practitioner and that’s kind of the evolution of where we went from selling private practice to becoming more of an e-commerce space and I realized that I can impact more patients as an entrepreneur than I can as a one on one doctor.

Dr. Dan: That is awesome. That is really, really, awesome. So, you open up Eye Love. You start to really take off. You have this success um, you, you basically sell one or closed one of your practices and now how do you, like I was reading about you, you’re talking about you donate a percentage of I guess the product sales to this concept of Eye Love and giving glasses to Jamaica. I read something about also, like here is an example in Jamaica you have this fishermen and around 50 they start to lose their sight. I guess as we all do. I will just give you a quick story myself, I was about 47, 48, I always had 20/20 vision. I actually have several optometrist in my family. My cousin Howard Margolin and Steve Ash are all optometrist and stuff so, I have been all checked out 20/20 vision all of a sudden around 47/48 I’m reading the newspaper one day and I’m sitting with my wife and I remember saying to her Aimee the economy must be really bad. She was like what do you mean. They’re saving money on ink because it looks like they’re making the newspaper print smaller and smaller and I was totally Doc I was totally serious you know and she said I think it’s your eyes. I’m like no come on I always have 20/20 and from that point on I had it checked out but yeah it actually my eyesight had deteriorated to the point where now I again I was 20/20. I could read anything now I absolutely have to put glasses on without reading glasses a actually can’t read the fine print. Is that a natural process, I mean, how do people normally aged with their eyesight?

Dr. Travis: That’s a 100% natural on the what you have just described is what a single person goes through no matter what and it’s very natural the we have lens inside our eye and this lens is very flexible when we are born so, we can flex it to see up close and then we relax it to see far away and what happens is starting at 8 years old we started to add layer upon layer to this lens and it’s just a natural part of getting older and as these layers start to build up they start to hit us around the age of 40 and they become so thick or that lens becomes so thick that you can no longer bend it as well as you use to and so remember I said we bend it to read and we relax it to see far away and so 30’s or 40’s you start to lose that ability to see up close so you start to grab reading glasses between the age of 40 and 50. Now when you hit your 50’s that lens starts to get so thick that it starts to affect your distance and your reading glasses or excuse me and your reading so then you’ll have your glasses for both distance and for reading eventually and that’s just a natural thickening of that lens.

Dr. Dan: Now is there any way to prevent that through vitamins or exercise or anything actually that you could do to slow that down or prevent that?

Dr. Travis: There’s actually some neat research going into it that is looking at an eye drop that will help keep the flexibility of the lens and also to prevent cataracts because if we go another 20 years into the future or 10 years into the future after that lens gets thicker and thicker it actually starts to become cloudy and that’s what a cataract is.

Dr. Dan: And then again both, you know what you’re saying is exact, both my parents have had the cataract surgery. My dad actually had a cataracts in his late 40’s and I think he was one of the first people where I guess before they did the implantable they put a lens in at that point that he was one of the first people to have that done but before that correct me if I’m wrong but you would wear a fairly thick pair of glasses before that is that true?

Dr. Travis: That is correct because your lens is very powerful and so if you did not have a lens put in you have very very thick glasses and it just wouldn’t be enjoyable even wear the glasses.

Dr. Dan: Yeah now I mean honestly he has 20/20 vision. He has no glasses and you wouldn’t even know I mean it’s just it’s amazing. My mom same thing she literally just had a surgery about a year ago and she’s like Dan they gave me back my sight you know so ah, it is amazing. So, as far as cataracts, and as far as this thickening there is potentially some drops coming out that would increase that flexibility. Would that also stop you from getting cataracts?  

Dr. Travis: That’s the goal of the drops um these are very very like new studies. I think they are doing the studies on dog eyes right now because dogs go through the same process and you’ve probably seen a dog with a white opaque eye and that’s usually just a cataract.

Dr. Dan: Wow, wow. What did people do before these cataracts surgeries? They would just naturally go blind as aged?

Dr. Travis: Yeah and so we talked about 700 and 3 million people that are blind due to the lack of glasses.

Dr. Dan: Yeah

Dr. Travis: That goes back to this whole process so around the age of 40 to 50 people start to think they are going blind because they can no longer read their Bible or read the paper or fish a fishing hook for their career and then eventually they do get cataracts and they do go blind from it and that’s the biggest problem or that’s probably the second biggest problem in these third world countries is the lack of glasses being number one and then the lack of um resources to have cataract surgery is the second one because once you have cataracts you usually go on a waiting list that takes like five years to get that cataract surgery and you’re already blind at this point because we have to in the United States we usually around 20/40 is when we start to send out for cataract surgery which isn’t that bad but in the other, in third world countries we usually wait until they are about 21 hundred 22 hundred which is a lot worse. Which it is hard to imagine if you have never seen that way.

Dr. Dan: Now you know just for the audience too. You, ah ah, I watched one of your videos, you were saying in Jamaica a lot of the people are fishermen um when they do start to lose their eyesight if do not have glasses it is really detrimental, could you explain that a little bit?

Dr. Travis: Yeah so, if a fisherman can’t fish a fishing hook they obviously can’t catch fish and it’s a pair of reading glasses can completely change their career because if they can no longer fish their hook. They can no longer make money for their family and they pretty much become a beggar and they can no longer work and so they will be on the streets and that’s very common and we just throw a simple pair of reading glasses on that we get for a dollar dollar general and changes their life it literally changes their life because they can get back to working.

Dr. Dan: You know that when I saw it, it blew me away, because never in, I have never even thought that, that would be a problem because we could walk in at any store throw a dollar down and get a pair of reading glasses it’s not a big deal and yet these poor people are suffering at this level. How could we help you in your quest to do this? How would we do that?

Dr. Travis: So we actually, we started Eye Love with the mission being to donate profits back to those in need and we created a charity around that too so we take the profits from Eye Love and we donate it to our foundation I should call it. It’s called the Eye Love Cares Foundation and that’s eyelovecares.org and you can donate directly to the foundation as well um, but then the foundation helps us with these clinics and helps us with our trips so the practice that we have in South Carolina now we actually don’t take any insurance and it’s a cash only practice and it’s a pay what you can practice so, what we do is we give you the suggested price of what you should pay for your exam and it’s pretty much pay whatever you can. So, we’ll say hey it’s a 100 dollars for today’s exam, somebody comes to me and says, hey I’m out of work right now I can only afford $10 and I’ll say that’s fine, just pay whatever you can and that’s pretty much the model we went with and if that practice ever struggles will help it out with the foundation but it is a for profit practice and it does well and we have never had to bail it out with the foundation. The foundation is mostly for the trips that we take to Jamaica, sponsoring cataract surgery, and then we also do some scholarships, we haven’t really started scholarships yet but we’re going to start doing scholarships for people that are interested in mission work in optometry.

Dr. Dan: Dr. Zigler, I think you have earned your wings my friend.

Dr. Travis: Hahaha, thank you.

Dr. Dan: No, that’s awesome. That’s awesome. How, um you also you make products along the line of dry eye. What is dry eye? Just go into that, I have heard the term before but I, I never understood what it was or how it comes or how is that related to glaucoma, glasses etc.

Dr. Travis: So, dry eye completely independent of those two things and dry eye is again something that is a big mystery we actually just started studying it a lot about 10 years ago and there’s multiple kind of steps to dry eye you have your mild, your moderate, your severe, just like any disease but the most common form of dry eye that I see is called meibomian gland dysfunction and we call it MGD for short which is just a fancy word for the oil glands that live in your eyelids. You have about 31 oil glands on the top of your eyelid, 31 on the bottom of your eyelids, those oil glands secrete oil onto your eye to make your eye comfortable and they are called meibomian glands and if that oil isn’t getting out onto your eye, your eyes are going to feel like there is something in it, it’s going to water a lot. Sounds crazy to say you have dry eye but your eyes watering a lot.

Dr. Dan: Right, right, right, it’s like, it’s like an overreaction kind of thing

Dr. Travis: Yeah, it’s very similar to getting something in your eye, your eyes are going to tear a lot and that’s a watery tear that comes from different part of the eye. This oil layer if it is dysfunctional, meibomian gland dysfunction, then you’re going to have a lot of irritation, a lot of dryness and that’s kind of I see that in probably close to 30 to 40% of my patients but only about half of those are symptomatic and so when we address dry eye, I always address the meibomian glands first and that’s where we take treatment first to see if we can solve it naturally.

Dr. Dan: And what, what like when you, what are the products that you actually use to do that? Like what are the natural products?

Dr. Travis: So, I always talk, I love your podcast you had on just a couple episodes ago about the guy talking about a vegan diet.

Dr. Dan: Yes, yes

Dr. Travis: We talk dietary modifications a lot with our patients

Dr. Dan: Really?

Dr. Travis: And increasing omega 3 fatty acids, increasing leafy green vegetables, omega 3 fatty acids a lot of people know them as fish oil and fish oil is great because you are putting a better oil into your body which is going to create a better oil coming out in of your body including those meibomian glands and the oil glands but you are also decreasing inflammation which we know that dry eye a big part of dry eye is inflammation

Dr. Dan: Really?

Dr. Travis: So, one of the first things we always do is put somebody on dietary modification by increasing omega 3s, and increasing leafy green just because leafy greens have carotenoids which are just really powerful antioxidants and antioxidants of course decreases inflammation, decrease cancer risks, they do a lot and so leafy green vegetables, colorful vegetables is what we kind of push first and we try to tell people that to decrease their meat consumption, dairy consumption, um where I live it is pretty much impossible to tell somebody to go on a vegan diet because I live in the South so, that’s a little hard there.

Dr. Dan: Yes, yes

Dr. Travis: And then some other natural things you could do is eliminate offending agents like medications anti-histamines, hormone replacement, birth control, those all cause drying, blood pressure medications, and so if you do the dietary modifications that would usually eliminate the systemic medications that you are taking.

Dr. Dan: Now, now, let me ask you first, I have heard blood pressure could cause a by problem, so you are saying the blood pressure medication itself can create this situation?

Dr. Travis: Yeah, blood pressure medication, especially things like lasik those are going to cause dryness.

Dr. Dan: Isn’t that interesting? Wow, wow, you know, I know this is going to sound like a silly thing, I have seen on the internet these, these ads for exercises for your eye where you can throw away your glasses, is any of that true?

Dr. Travis: Hahaha, no.

Dr. Dan: Okay. So that’s just baloney. Okay

Dr. Travis: What you are doing is that you are just strengthening the muscle that bends the lens of your eye going back a couple of minutes ago that we were talking about lens flexibility. That’s what those exercises do, they just strengthen that muscle.

Dr. Dan: Does that help at all? Does that make any difference?

Dr. Travis: It is like, I’m trying to think of something to compare it to. It is like lifting weights, you are just lifting weights in the eye. It will help but it is not going to eliminate your need for glasses.

Dr. Dan: Okay, got you. Okay. I have just, over the years I have seen that, I always wondered if there some truth in that if I get to throw away my glasses if I really put my tension on,but clearly not, clearly not. Dr. Zigler you know, one of the thing, as we wine down to the end of our interviews we always ask the ah the guest what they consider the holy grail of health to be and I guess I’m going to maybe  preference this in terms of two things one would be what you in general consider the holy grail of health and then regarding your eye is what you consider the holy grail of health. What do you think?

Dr. Travis: So, it goes back to what we are just talking about and it all comes down to food. I mean food, Americans, the problem with Americans and actually culture in general is that we look at food as a pleasure center and food is a fuel for our body and if you kind of reverse how you think of food it is going to make a big difference in your health and you can still get pleasure out of healthy food but if you go to, my wife and I eat vegetarian, we are not quite vegan, we are pretty close to vegan but we will eat meat probably once a month and if you look at food as more of a fuel source and not pleasure and that makes a big difference in getting rid of food that comes in a box or can with preservatives and just go to proto and you just shop there, that would change both your systemic health and it will change your eye health traumatically.

Dr. Dan: You know that is a, so powerful, I have never heard anybody say that way and I have never actually looked at it from that view point of. You know I do look at food as a pleasure source. I want to eat something that’s got to be like awesome, tasty or something like that. But you are right at the end of the day what am I trying to deal, I’m trying to sustain myself, I’m trying to sustain my health now if I just my perspective. I’m not just going to eat horrible tasting stuff but that really is. That’s a powerful thing you just said.

Dr. Travis: Yeah, I always, I had a quote the other day and I forgot who said it but it said that “ A disease is your body’s way of telling you that something that you are doing is wrong”

Dr. Dan: Wow

Dr. Travis: And we shouldn’t have disease, I will give you an example in my case I had high cholesterol. I’m only 33 years old and I was diagnosed with high cholesterol at the age of 27 and I was like what am I doing wrong? I ran half marathons, I ate well and we decided that we are just going to completely eliminate meat from our diet and my cholesterol went from 220 to about 120 and now it’s throughout 150 and that’s because of our vegetarian diet with a little bit of meat consumption like I said once a month and I do take a fish oil and that’s kind of the only meat I really eat is omega 3 fish oil but we are actually developing, working on developing a vegan based fish oil product. That sounds counterintuitive but, a vegan based omega 3 supplement.

Dr. Dan: Yeah

Dr. Travis: But a vegan based omega 3 supplement is what I should say

Dr. Dan: Wow that’s powerful stuff. Dr. Zigler, for people that wanted to get in touch with you, wanted to find out more about you, how would they, how would they do that sir?

Dr. Travis: So the easiest way to get in touch with me is on Facebook if you search Dry Eye you’ll see a community it’s called the Dry Eye Syndrome Support Community. It’s a community of about 2,000 like minded individuals that are all trying to kind of cure their dry eye or treat their dry eye and so we are pretty active in that community. That’s probably where we are most active and then um, there’s also we have another community called the Macular Degeneration Support Community and that’s not quite as active but just search dry eye on Facebook and you’ll see me or you can search Dr. Travis Zigler on Facebook and you’ll find me as well and that’s pretty much where we are most active and feel free to come to our website in eyelovethesun.com. Eye like an eyeball at eyelovethesun.com

Dr. Dan: Dr. Travis Zigler I would like to thank you for joining us our show no put intended but you did opened our eyes to a lot of things and I greatly greatly appreciate that.

Dr. Travis: Yeah, I was happy to be here and it was fun.

Dr. Dan: Awesome

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